Ethelred II "The Unready" King Of ENGLAND [Parents] was born about 968 in Of Wessex, England. He died on 23 Apr 1016 in London, Middlesex, England. He was buried in St Paul's, London, Middlesex, England. He married Alfgifu (Aelflaed) Queen Of ENGLAND about 985 in Of, , Wessex, England.
Other marriages:NORMANDY, Emma Princess Of
Alfgifu (Aelflaed) Queen Of ENGLAND [Parents] was born about 968 in Of Wessex, England. She married Ethelred II "The Unready" King Of ENGLAND about 985 in Of, , Wessex, England.
They had the following children:
M i Edmund II "Ironside" King Of ENGLAND was born about 988. He died on 30 Nov 1016. M ii Athelstan Prince Of ENGLAND was born about 986 in Of Wessex, England. He died in 1016 in England. M iii Egbert Prince Of ENGLAND was born about 987 in Of Wessex, England. He died about 1005 in England. M iv Edred Prince Of ENGLAND was born about 990 in Of Wessex, England. M v Edwig Prince Of ENGLAND was born about 991 in Of Wessex, England. He died in 1017 in England. M vi Edward Prince Of ENGLAND was born about 992 in Of Wessex, England. M vii Edgar Prince Of ENGLAND was born about 994 in Of Wessex, England. F viii Edith Princess Of ENGLAND was born about 995 in Of Wessex, England. F ix Wulfhild Princess Of ENGLAND was born about 998 in Of Wessex, England. F x Miss Princess Of ENGLAND was born about 1000 in Of Wessex, England. F xi Miss Ethelred Of ENGLAND was born about 1001 in Of, Wherewell, Hampshire, England. F xii Elfgifu Princess Of ENGLAND was born about 997.
Barnard BALLIOL [Parents] was born about 1105 in , Picardy, , France. He married Agnes PIQUIGNY.
Agnes PIQUIGNY was born about 1110 in Of, Piquigny, , France. She married Barnard BALLIOL.
They had the following children:
F i Annabel BALLIOL was born about 1153. She died on 31 Mar 1204.
William De LACY was born about 1200 in Of Caernarvonshire, Wales. He married Gwenllian "Las" Verch LLYWELYN.
Gwenllian "Las" Verch LLYWELYN [Parents] was born about 1207 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. She married William De LACY.
Saher IV, De QUINCY [Parents] was born in 1155 in Of, Winchester, Hampshire, England. He died on 3 Nov 1219 in , Damietta, On Way To Holy Land, Palestine. He was buried in , Acre, , Palestine. He married Margaret De HARCOURT about 1174 in , , , England.
Margaret De HARCOURT [Parents] was born about 1156 in Of, , Hampshire, England. She died on 12 Jan 1235/1236. She was buried in , Brackley, Northamptonshire, England. She married Saher IV, De QUINCY about 1174 in , , , England.
They had the following children:
F i Arabella De QUINCY was born about 1186 in Of, Winchester, Hampshire, England. She died after 1258. M ii Reginald De QUINCY was born about 1184 in Of, Winchester, Hampshire, England. M iii Robert De QUINCY was born about 1186/1188. He died in Aug 1257. F iv Loretta De QUINCY was born about 1180 in Of, Winchester, Hampshire, England. M v John De QUINCY was born about 1182 in Of, Winchester, Hampshire, England. F vi Beatrice De QUINCY was born about 1185 in Of, Brackley, Northamptonshire, England. M vii Roger De QUINCY was born about 1174 in Of, Winchester, Hampshire, England. He died on 25 Apr 1264 in (spm), , , England. He was buried in , Brackley, Aberdeenshire, Scotland. F viii Hawise De QUINCY was born about 1178 in Of Winchester, Hampshire, England. She died on 11 Feb 1222/1223.
Waltheof Earl Of NORTHUMBERLAND [Parents] was born about 1046 in Of, , Northumberland, England. He was christened in (minor-1055). He died on 31 May 1076 in (spm). He was buried in Jun 1076 in , Crowland, Lincolnshire, England. He married Judith Of BOULOGNE in 1070 in Of, , Artois, France.
Judith Of BOULOGNE [Parents] was born in 1054/1055 in Of, Lens, Artois, France. She married Waltheof Earl Of NORTHUMBERLAND in 1070 in Of, , Artois, France.
They had the following children:
F i Matilda (Maud) HUNTINGTON was born about 1072. She died on 23 Apr 1130/1131. F ii Alice (Adeliza) HUNTINGDON was born about 1085 in Of, Flamsted, Hertfordshire, England. She died after 1126.
John De BREUSE [Parents] was born about 1198 in Of, Bramber, Sussex, England. He died on 18 Jul 1232 in Bramber, Sussex, England. He married Margred Verch LLYWELYN in 1219.
Margred Verch LLYWELYN [Parents] was born about 1210 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. She died after 1263/1264 in Clifford Castle, , Herefordshire, England. She was buried in Priory Church, Aconbury, Herefordshire, England. She married John De BREUSE in 1219.
They had the following children:
William "Longespee" Prince Of ENGLAND [Parents] was born about 1173 in Of, , , England. He died on 7 Mar 1225/1226 in , , , England. He was buried in Cathedral, Salisbury, Wiltshire, England. He married Ela (Fitzpatrick) Countess Of SALISBURY in 1198 in Of, Salisbury, Wiltshire, England.
Ela (Fitzpatrick) Countess Of SALISBURY [Parents] was born about 1191 in , Amesbury, Wiltshire, England. She died on 24 Aug 1261 in , Lacock, Wiltshire, England. She was buried in Lacock Abbey, Lacock, Wiltshire, England. She married William "Longespee" Prince Of ENGLAND in 1198 in Of, Salisbury, Wiltshire, England.
They had the following children:
Reginald De BRAOSE [Parents] was born about 1178/1185 in Of, Bramber, Sussex, England. He died on 9 Jun 1228 in Of, Brecon, Breconshire, Wales. He was buried in Priory Church, Brecon, Breconshire, Wales. He married Gwladys "Ddu" Verch LLEWELYN before 1221 in , , Wales.
Other marriages:BRIWERE, Grecia (Alice)
Gwladys "Ddu" Verch LLEWELYN [Parents] was born about 1205 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. She died in 1251 in Windsor, Berkshire, England. She married Reginald De BRAOSE before 1221 in , , Wales.
Other marriages:MORTIMER, Ralph De
Llywelyn did not marry Joan until 1205 at the EARLIEST, or 1206, if
you believe more detailed sources. Llywelyn did not receive the final
(third) letter from the Pope declaring his betrothal to the daughter of
the King of Man to be void until 1205. Giving a year for conception
and birth, if one assumed Gwladys were daughter of Joan, she could
not have been born earlier than 1206 or 1207. If she were older than
eight or nine years old in 1215, she could not have been daughter of
Joan. As I stated before, the marriage to Reginald de Braose in 1215
was one of political expediency, and not one where the were waiting
for the girl to come of age (so to speak). You'd be relying heavily
on the coincidence that Gwladys happened to be in that very narrow
range between seven (before which age she could not even have
been betrothed) and eight, or nine. Then we have Joan's son and
heir David being born BY 1208 (gave homage in 1229). If Joan
were indeed married in 1206, and David born in 1208 (he cannot
have been born later if the law was followed), that is an
awfully tight squeeze to put Gwladys's coincidental birth there.I still think the claim that Gwladys was daughter of Joan, and
that she therefore MUST have been born in 1207--not before,
not after--is doubtful."Paul C. Reed" <rpc5@uswest.net>
In answer to your question, there was a clear and unambigious
statement that Gladys Dhu was the daughter of Llywelyn and Joan in the
chronicle of Adam of Usk. Adam knew the Mortimer family and
presumably had access to their archives. While Adam is a late date
witness and not altogether reliable, he is rather emphatic that Gladys
was Joan's daughter.As for another late date testimony of the Mortimer family's descent
from Llywelyn, I find the Visitation of the North prepared c.
1480-1500 states that "Roger [recte Ralph] Mortemer duxit Gladiswiscam
filiam principis Wallie." [Reference: Surtees Society, vol. 144,
published 1930, pg. 3.Presumably the point of reciting the extended Mortimer pedigree back
to Prince Llywelyn is because the English descendants of the Mortimer
family c. 1480-1500 believed that Gladys was the legitimate daughter
of Prince Llywelyn, by his wife, Joan.Adam of Usk and the Visitation of the North aside, I believe the best
evidence of Gladys Dhu's parentage is the fact that Gladys' father,
Llywelyn, released two castles which he had in free marriage with his
wife, Joan, to Gladys' husband, Ralph de Mortimer. I posted a
transcript of Llywelyn's charter to Ralph de Mortimer on the
newsgroup. If you need help finding the transcript, please let me
know.Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royalancestry@msn.comIf I read this right are you saying that as there was an ongoing dispute
with the Mortimers over Knighton and Norton, Llywelyn may have decided to
cut his losses and give away the properties with Gwladys. The pragmatic
value of such an act would have overridden the issue of her maternity. It is
my understanding that legally Llywellyn could have given the properties away
with the consent of Joan, anyway.Also in 1229, Gwladys Dhu accompanied her brother as widow of Reginald de
Braose for the purpose of negotiations in London for her to become bride of
Ralph Mortimer? If this is the case, we cannot draw any conclusions about
her maternity from this event.Cheers
Rosie
"Rosie Bevan" <cbevan@paradise.net.nz>Two major pieces of evidence point to Joan as being Gladys' mother.
[GMacGen@aol.com] Giles tells us that Peter C. Bartrum's _Welsh Genealogies_
[table Gruffudd ap Cynan 4] gives the mother of Gwladys Ddu as Tangwystl.
Here is what is shown in Peter C. Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, page 446,
Gruffudd ap Cynan 4:Iorwerth Drwyndwn ab Owain Gwynedd
m Margred f. Madog (Bl ap C 3)
|
Llywelyn d. 1240
(1) Joan d. King John m. 1205
(a) Tangwystl f. Llywarch Goch (LL. Ho. 1)
|
Gwladus Ddu d. 1251
(1) Reginald de Braose d. 1228
(2) Ralph II Mortimer d. 1246Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor and Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION
__________________________________________
HT Communications / PO Box 1401 / Arvada CO 80001
VOICE: 303-420-4888 FAX: 303-420-4845
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KHF333@AOL.comLlywelyn did not marry Joan until 1205 at the EARLIEST, or 1206, if you believe more detailed sources. Llywelyn did not receive the final (third) letter from the Pope declaring his betrothal to the daughter of
the King of Man to be void until 1205. Giving a year for conception and birth, if one assumed Gwladys were daughter of Joan, she could not have been born earlier than 1206 or 1207. If she were older than eight or nine years old in 1215, she could not have been daughter of Joan. As I stated before, the marriage to Reginald de Braose in 1215 was one of political expediency, and not one where the were waiting for the girl to come of age (so to speak). You'd be relying heavily on the coincidence that Gwladys happened to be in that very narrow range between seven (before which age she could not even have been betrothed) and eight, or nine. Then we have Joan's son and heir David being born BY 1208 (gave homage in 1229). If Joan were indeed married in 1206, and David born in 1208 (he cannot have been born later if the law was followed), that is an awfully tight squeeze to put Gwladys's coincidental birth there.I still think the claim that Gwladys was daughter of Joan, and that she therefore MUST have been born in 1207--not before, not after--is doubtful.
In answer to your question, there was a clear and unambigious statement that Gladys Dhu was the daughter of Llywelyn and Joan in the chronicle of Adam of Usk. Adam knew the Mortimer family and
presumably had access to their archives. While Adam is a late date witness and not altogether reliable, he is rather emphatic that Gladys was Joan's daughter.As for another late date testimony of the Mortimer family's descent from Llywelyn, I find the Visitation of the North prepared c. 1480-1500 states that "Roger [recte Ralph] Mortemer duxit Gladiswiscam filiam principis Wallie." [Reference: Surtees Society, vol. 144, published 1930, pg. 3.
Presumably the point of reciting the extended Mortimer pedigree back to Prince Llywelyn is because the English descendants of the Mortimer family c. 1480-1500 believed that Gladys was the legitimate daughter of Prince Llywelyn, by his wife, Joan.
Adam of Usk and the Visitation of the North aside, I believe the best evidence of Gladys Dhu's parentage is the fact that Gladys' father, Llywelyn, released two castles which he had in free marriage with his wife, Joan, to Gladys' husband, Ralph de Mortimer. I posted a transcript of Llywelyn's charter to Ralph de Mortimer on the newsgroup. If you need help finding the transcript, please let me know.
If I read this right are you saying that as there was an ongoing dispute with the Mortimers over Knighton and Norton, Llywelyn may have decided to cut his losses and give away the properties with Gwladys. The pragmatic value of such an act would have overridden the issue of her maternity. It is my understanding that legally Llywellyn could have given the properties away with the consent of Joan, anyway.
Also in 1229, Gwladys Dhu accompanied her brother as widow of Reginald de Braose for the purpose of negotiations in London for her to become bride of Ralph Mortimer? If this is the case, we cannot draw any conclusions about her maternity from this event.
[GMacGen@aol.com] Giles tells us that Peter C. Bartrum's _Welsh Genealogies_ [table Gruffudd ap Cynan 4] gives the mother of Gwladys Ddu as Tangwystl. Here is what is shown in Peter C. Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, page 446, Gruffudd ap Cynan 4:
Iorwerth "Drwyndwn" Ap OWAIN [Parents] was born in 1145 in Aberffraw Castle, Aberffraw, Anglsy, Wales. He died about 1184. He married Margred Verch MADOG about 1163.
Margred Verch MADOG [Parents] was born about 1129 in Of, , Montgomeryshire, Wales. She married Iorwerth "Drwyndwn" Ap OWAIN about 1163.
Hubert Walter, Archbishop of Canterbury, died 13 July 1205, which provides a definite terminus. The styling of Llywelyn Fawr as Prince of North Wales [princeps Norwalliae] could mean as early as 1194, when he removed his uncle Dafydd from power, or as late as after 1200 when he obtained control of the remainder of Gwynedd from his cousin Gruffydd. Perhaps if we can find more detail as to the career of Robert, bishop of Bangor and abbot of Bildewas, co. Salop & c., this time frame could be better defined.
It is interesting to note that the issue has to do with the husband of 'M' [Margaret, mother of Llywelyn] and the issue of his relations with one 'Guladus' or Gwladys, a kinswoman of 'M'. While an Anglo-Welsh heritage is not ruled out for either woman, on the surface it would reinforce the indentification of Margaret with Margaret ferch Madog, daughter of Madog ap Maredudd of Powys (d. ca. 1160).
John
Therav3@aol.com
They had the following children:
M i Llewelyn Ap IORWERTH Llewelyn the Great was born in 1173. He died on 11 Apr 1240.
Llewelyn Ap IORWERTH Llewelyn the Great [Parents] was born in 1173 in Aberffraw Castle, Caernarvonshire, Wales. He died on 11 Apr 1240 in Aberconwy, Arllechwedd Isaf, Caernarvonshire, Wales.
Other marriages:ENGLAND, Joan Princess Of
LLYWARCH, Tangwystl Verch
Having followed the various threads on this subject, is the following correct?
Llywellyn Fawr (1194-1240)
Married [1] Joan Plantagenet (c 1189-1236)Children:
Gwladus Ddu (1206-1251) m[1] Reginald de Braose
m[2] Ralph Mortimer
Margaret m[1] John de Braose
m[2] Walter de Clifford
Angharad
Dafydd (1208-1246) m Isabel de Braose
Susanna
Ellen (Helen) m[1] Malcolm, Earl of Fife
m[2] DonaldMarried [2] Gwenllian of Brynffenigi
Children:
Helen m[1] John le Scot
m[2] Robert de Quincey
GwenllianMistress: Tangwystl ferch Llywarch Goch
Child: Gruffydd (1196-1244)
Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>
My genealogy website:
http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html
Dave Utzinger posted on this based on the an article by William Addams
Reitwiesner in The Genealogist, vol. 1, no. 1 (Spring 1980), pp. 80-95. This
is his list:Descendants of Llywelyn ap Iorworth
1 Llywelyn ap Iorworth b: Abt. 1173 in Dolyddelan, Wales d: 11 April
1240 in Aberconway Abbey, Carnarvonshire, Wales
. +Tangwystl verch Llwarch b: Abt. 1168 in of Rhos, Wales d: Bef. 1205
2 Gruffudd ap Llewellyn b: Bef. 1205 d: 01 March 1243/44 in London,
ENG
. +Senena ferch Caradog
*2nd Wife of Gruffudd ap Llewellyn:
. +Rhanullt
*2nd Wife of Llywelyn ap Iorworth:
. +Joan Plantagenet b: Abt. 1191 d: 02 February 1236/37 in Aber
Palace, Carnarvon, Wales
2 Elen verch Llywelyn b: in Gwynedd, Wales d: Bef. 24 October
1253
. +John of Scotland b: 1207 m: 1222 d: Abt. 06 June 1237
*2nd Husband of Elen verch Llywelyn:
. +Robert de Quincey b: Abt. 1176 m: Aft. 06 June 1237 d: Abt. 1257
2 Dafydd ap Llywelyn b: Abt. 1208 d: 12 February 1245/46 in Aber
. +Concubine
*2nd Wife of Dafydd ap Llywelyn:
. +Isabel de Braose b: Abt. 1215 m: Abt. 10 August 1230 d: Bef. 1248
*3rd Wife of Llywelyn ap Iorworth:
. +Unknown
2 Gwenllian of Wales d: 1281
. +William de Lacy
2 Angharad verch Llewelyn
. +Maelgwn Fychan d: 1257
2 Tegwared y Baiswen
. +Gwenllian ferch Ednyfed ap Cynwrig
2 Angharad verch Llywelyn
. +Philip ap Ivor
2 Daughter verch Llywelyn
. +William Caentwn
2 Gwladys Dhu of Wales b: Abt. 1194 in of Gwynedd, Wales d: 1251 in
Windsor, BRK, ENG
. +Reginald de Braose b: Abt. 1171 in Bramber, SSX, ENG m: 1215
d: Bet. 05 May 1227 - 09 June 1228 in Brecon, Breconshire, Wales
*2nd Husband of Gwladys Dhu of Wales:
. +Ralph de Mortimer b: 1190 in of Wigmore, HEF, ENG m: 1230 d: 06
August 1246 in Wigmore, HRT, ENG
2 Margred verch Llewellyn b: Abt. 1208 in Wales (North) d: 1268
. +John de Breuse b: Abt. 1198 m: Abt. 1220 d: Abt. 02 November
1232 in Bramber, SUS, ENG
*2nd Husband of Margred verch Llewellyn:
. +Walter III de Clifford b: Abt. 1186 in ENG m: Abt. 1232 in SSX, ENGd: Abt. 23 December 1263 in Clifford
2 Helen verch Llewellyn b: Abt. 1234 in of Wales
. +Malcolm MacDuff b: Bef. 1228 d: 1266
*2nd Husband of Helen verch Llewellyn:
. +Donald de Mar d: Aft. 25 July 1297
He had the following children:
M i Tegwared "y Baiswen" Ap LLYWELYN was born about 1192 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales.